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  • Ok so first off, thank you for typing out a well thought argument.

    I posted a summed up version of the five ways, rather than the full text, and now I realize that probably was a mistake. I just wanted to make sure people would have read it, most would have ignored a wall of text. Instead, I will directly quote the full text in my answers here.

    Here is a TL;DR, cause this will be long:

    Thus beginning a long standing religious tradition of using scientific rhetoric where its helpful and attempting to shoehorn philosophy in where it contradicts or fails to uphold.

    I don't think he tried to use scientific rethoric at all, nor that any philosophical shoehorning has happened. Rather, it's entirely philosophy. Doesn't mean it's perfect or necessarily correct, but we gotta call it the way it is. I also think you might be trying a bit too hard to interpret it as science, while that's not really what the Summa was meant to be. Some of your conclusions were drawn from the summary I posted not being accurate (sorry about that, btw) and I adressed them by quoting the full text.

    Starting from the fourth way:

    Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

    You correctly criticized his mistake in using fire as the source of maximum heat and mixing in scientifical evidence with philosophy, but the full text tells a more nuanced story.Fire here is more of an example, rather than pure scientifical evidence. It's also not the basis of the point he is adressing here. That would instead be more abstract (and wouldn't you know it, philosophical) concepts like "good" and "true". So while your discussion on splitting natural sciences and philosophy makes a lot of sense, I don't think it applies here.

    Onto the fifth way:

    The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

    In truth, I think this is the most beautiful of the five ways and the one that, to me,makes the most sense from a scientific perspective. I remained of the opinion that Aquinas wasn't trying to bring in natural sciences into this one, but since you brought up "modern scientifical understanding" I will do my best to make some sense of it, according to modern science.

    The message here is not as easy as water flowing because of gravity. It's also not as easy as "what was before the Big Bang?", because that would be, like you said, vulnerable to the "God of the gaps" counter argument.Rather, starting from the universal constants such as the Boltzmann constant which regulates all of thermodinamycs; the speed of light in a vacuum, which regulates all existing radiation or the gravitational constant, which regulates how all matter and time interact; through science we get a very clear picture of how many pieces needed to fall into place for reality as we know it to come together, let alone life to be possible. According to this modern interpretation, the fifth way states that in order for the universe to exist as we know it, defined according to these specific constants, it must have happened through a higher being, a creator. Here, actually, is the only place where I see a possible mistake, because on a logical level he doesn't prove definitively that the existence of God is the only solution to the problem, the hypothesis of a coincidence remains on the table. However I personally think, when put in this perspective, the religious hypothesis remains the more believable one.

    On your last point, I don't see how the fifth way would violate what he has established from the first way. The fifth claims that motion of inanimate objects happens naturally and repeatedly because of "some intelligent being [...] [whom] we call God". The first instead says that God was the first who put everything in motion, and that because of that things have been kept in motion ever since the universe began. I think these two point go hand in hand, rather than being opposed:God first created the universe, by putting things in motion. God also defined the patters according to which things should have moved after his initial "push". This makes perfect sense to me.

  • Quite funny really

    I know, right? Like I said it was mostly a semantics issue, I wasn't sure what OP meant. When they kindly clarified their question I gave them my answer, coming from a different perspective from most of the commenters.Then in you came, and started slandering my religion. Like you might have guessed it didn't quite sit right with me. Assuming you are an Atheist, it's like I came at you saying that "Atheists have no morals" or "Atheists are nothing but hedonists". I don't think you would have liked it. So I tried my best to provide sensible answers to your remarks. I guess that makes me too an apologist; I don't really have a problem with that label.

    Everything before your last sentence presupposes your personal interpretation of your god.

    No, it is the interpretation of the Catholic Church, which is the church followed by most Christians on this planet.

    I'm not looking for philosophical evidence [...]

    Alright, you do you then. It seems to me that you are trying to explain God through science, and I'm not sure whether that is possible. Science, from a Christian perspective, is the study of God's creation. Inferring knowledge about the creator from His creation seems like an arduous task to me. I think using reasoning and philosophy would be a more reasonable option.

    Clearly this is the Christian god of the Bible and definitely not any other god humans have believed in [...]

    One step at a time. Once we are both on the same page that a higher being exist and the universe and life aren't just the product of mere coincidence we can discuss why I think the "Christian God", like you called him, is the right interpretation. But first you would need to accept religion(s) in general.

  • I mainly write JS and not having a backtick on my keyboard annoys the fuck out of me. Other than that the Italian keyboard is alright, never had any other problems with it.

  • I literally quoted a source. Want more? This is the Cathechism of the Catholic Church on the topic of free will:

    1730

    1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."

    1739

    1739 Freedom and sin. Man's freedom is limited and fallible. In fact, man failed. He freely sinned. By refusing God's plan of love, he deceived himself and became a slave to sin. This first alienation engendered a multitude of others. From its outset, human history attests the wretchedness and oppression born of the human heart in consequence of the abuse of freedom.

    If instead you were looking for philosophical evidence for God's existance, I recommend reading Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways.

  • That is spot on. Contrary to Protestant (and in particular Evangelical) belief, the Catholic Church teaches that there are four senses through which one can read Scripture: one is literal, while the other three are spiritual (allegorical, moral and anagogical) and can help us interpret Christ's message and how we should or should not behave during our earhthly lives. This is the relevant section from the Catechism.

    I am not familiar with Orthodox theology, but I would assume they would have a similar position on the topic.

  • I'm sorry that you felt the need to compare those who spread Christian doctrine with rape apologists and Nazis, but there are some things I don't like about your comment. Chances are you are not interested in hearing them (at least judging from the wording you used), but someone else in this thread might be.

    Yes, God is an absolute good. Yes, we cannot understand Him. Most "atrocities", like you called them, come from men being given free will by God and drifting away from His teachings, thus doing stuff that isn't good. God is good.

    If a baby dies and is baptized they go straight to Heaven. If a baby dies and isn't baptized we don't actually know for sure what happens (it is never explained in the Bible), but by interpreting other aspects of Christian dogma we can hope and assume that they too would be saved. On this topic I recommend the following read, by the International Theological Commission

    [There are] grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved and enjoy the Beatific Vision. We emphasise that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us.

    If there are other "atrocities" that you can think of and you'd like to discuss, I'd be happy to.

  • Oh yeah. No doubt about that, you never stop learning. It applies to all aspects of life, not just religion.

    Reading that links it looks like I actually did know what the discussion is about and just got confused. I googled "christian apologists" like OP called it, found no exact definitions and so I started wondering if maybe it was something I didn't know about. Protestant denominations often have weird names and I keep finding out about new ones, maybe there was also a prot denomination called "apologists". Guess not, though.

  • Uh I see. I didn't know any of those people, so I had to google that discussion between Alex O'Connor and Wiliam Lane Craig. Listened along for quite a bit and it was actually very interesting (so thank you, I'll definitely finish listening to the whole thing later on).

    From the way the used that "technique" I am guessing it isn't really that much about Christianity but rather, as others have said, a way to connect to the other person. People often get understandably heated during theological debates (understandably so, our most important beliefs are being challenged), maybe calling the other person by their name is a way to try and remembering the human and forming a sort of emotive connection that could otherwise get lost during the discussion.

    Why specifically Christians? I don't have an answer to that one. I am guessing it might happen more frequently with religion talks rather than say politics, or other frequent topics of discussion, because religion tends to appeal more often to morality and thus emotions. Just a guess, though.

  • What do you mean when you say: "christian apologists"? I'm afraid I am not understanding your question and that's me speaking as a Christian.

    Do you mean people defending Christian positions in thelogical debates? Or is it the name of some niche sect I am not aware of?

  • Yes.

  • How is being more virtuous shooting ourselves in the foot, exactly?

    Let me clarify. It's great on an environmental standpoint, it's quite terrible on an industrial and commercial one. If we are the only ones imposing climate regulation, businesses and industries will move abroad where it's cheaper to operate. I'm not saying scrapping the green deal laws is a good thing, but I am saying that I can see the logic behind it. And it's not because of the evil capitalism either, it's a desperate attempt for European industry to stay relevant on the global stage.

  • 30+ year approach? Where is that coming from? The median construction time for a nuclear reactor is 89 months, or 7,5 years. And it's not like we are only going to need it now either, our civilization is going to need reliable power sources for the foreseeable future, so why settle with alternatives that can only barely cover our needs now and need to be replaced with fossil fuels when not available, when a much cleaner option (that being nuclear) remains a possibility?

    The wind always blows somewhere. Diversification of locations across a country or ideally across Europe minimizes reliability issues.

    That somewhere will also need power, though. Not to mention, building interconnections across nations is an arduous task that requires time and financing on its own. According to the European Commission the current objective is reaching a 15% interconnection capacity by 2030 (meaning every member state should be able to export up to 15% of its capacity). And only 16 of 27 countries are on track with that objective. Sure, going forward with this will be great and very much necessary, but we cannot rely solely on interconnections, even when thinking 10 years from now.

    Let's take last night as an example: here are the electricity map data for Germany. At midnight, despite having an enormous renewable capacity installed, the wind was evidently pretty low and of course solar was of little use, so they still had to fire up their coal, gas and biomass generators.

    As this was going on, neighbouring Austria and Netherlands were doing great, with respectively 85% and 71% of their grids being powered by renewables, but unfortunately this wasn't nearly enough for power hungry Germany.In the meantime, France, despite only using 24% of renewables in its mix, managed to get the 4th lowest carbon intensity on our continent and the 7th worldwide, with a carbon intensity over 10 times better than that of Germany.

    The rest can be covered by investment in storage technologies.

    Some day, sure. But we need reliable and clean energy now, not in the distant future. So the first step is improving our grids today, then when the technology allows it we can phase out nuclear too, and move to a fully renewable grid. But that simply cannot happen right now.

  • I am really conflicted about this. On one hand I get that green policies are instrumental in stopping climate change before it's too late. On the other I know some people who work in the automotive industry and they all agree that we shot ourselves in the foot with this regulation. We ended up being the only committed nation block (whatever) while anyone else (namely China, India and the USA) kept doing little or nothing, token contributions if any, but few long run plans like we did.

    Surely there is lots of lobbying from the car industry behind this EPP decision, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also the genuine intention of many voters. Our industry is already falling behind, being the only ones concerned with green policies isn't helpful at all, it just allows everyone else to outcompete us.

  • While renewable sources are awesome, they are still not as reliable as the other solutions. You still need a baseline to keep your grid up at night, when the wind wanes or during droughts (depending on your renewable source of choice). Nuclear is the next best thing. Low CO2, safe and cheap in the long run. If everyone in the EU was as commited to nuclear as countries like France, Finland and Belgium are we could get reliably cheap power everywhere, which would be an amazing asset for our future industrial growth!

  • Well I am sorry for your loss. It happens. You might have stumbled on a "tourist trap", places where they make disgusting food that no local would ever touch and exclusively bank on foreigners who know no better. The Costiera Amalfitana is filled to the brim with foreign tourists, especially in summer, so I'm guessing there's no lack of such scummy places.

  • Yeah it would be in most countries lol. Good things in life are always either illegal, immoral or they make you gain weight.

  • Yes. Yes you have.

    Sincerely, from Italy with love much hatred and anger.

  • Yurop@lemm.ee has been created! Feel free to join for laid back discussions and content among Europeans

    Jump
  • YES! That was one of my favourite subs back on Reddit, glad to see it reborn.

  • 7,5k€ for one of those toys?! Hell I might get one myself. Even just the anti drone system would be so funny. What? You are flying your little shitty quadcopter at the park and taking pictures of the people jogging? No you are not! Hehehe.

  • Ok hear an European federalist's (me) take on this:

    Yes, ID and ECR are set to gain a pretty substantial amount of seats, especially compared to the results of the previous election, as the Guardian's infographic clearly highlights:

    However, their conclusion:

    As a result, the far-right ID group is projected to gain up to 40 more seats, for a total of 98, potentially making it the third political force and opening up the possibility of a “populist right” coalition (EPP, ECR, and ID) with 49% of MEPs in the new parliament

    seems a bit of a stretch. While ID is firmly eurosceptic and ECR is... undecisive, EPP is firmly pro Europe. EPP has been the largest party in the European Parliament for over 20 years, and they are the ones who elected names like von der Leyen and Metsola. I wouldn't call either "Anti-European".

    As the POLITICO "Poll of Polls" clearly highlights, the top groups aren't set to change all that much. The most notable changes are Renew losing quite a lot of seats and ID replacing it as the 3rd political force, but EPP and S&D mantain a significant lead.

    If ECR and ID ever came to building a "populist right coalition", I doubt EPP would be on their side. I think it's way more likely that they'd side with other forces like S&D or RE and try to stop them.

    In conclusion: yeah it sucks that Renew has lost so many seats, and it also sucks that far right voters seem to prefer the way more extreme ID to the comparatively more sane ECR, but things aren't nearly as tragic as the media is portraying them to be.